Thursday, January 8, 2009

The road will be traveled often

OK, my attempt to get you to look through rose colored glasses for a moment or two lasted about, what, a moment or two?
Well, it's back to reality.
Who was caught in the traffic nightmare last Saturday?
I know some of you were because you brought it up on other posts so I thought I would start a new post to consolidate the thread.
Obviously, something has to be done, and I for one appreciate the fact that Mr. Neilson came out to the Upper Providence meeting to let people know he was going to do just that.
The question is, though, just how much can he do? I mean, running a one-way street through a park just isn't the answer. Sure, it will alleviate some of the congestion for the time being, but what about when spring arrives and that park is full?
The only fix is going to be a full interchange off Route 422 at the Pawlings Road overpass. I can vaguely remember former Lower Providence Township Supervisor Tom Borai standing on the overpass in a photograph on the front page of The Times Herald. It must have been at least 10 years ago.
Why was he standing there, you ask? He was calling for a full interchange off Route 422.
Seems he knew then that the road would be traveled often.

87 comments:

Lisa said...

Some random thoughts:

Since the new Expo Center is about a block from my house, I was literally a prisoner in my own home.

The traffic made me more sad than angry, though. It was truly disheartening to think that this is the situation I'll have to deal with every weekend. There is a reason I don't live in King of Prussia anymore, after all.

That being said, does anyone else reading this blog---particulalry those of you L.P. people---find it odd that the Expo Center was opened with absolutely no snags whatsoever--not a single public outcry, not a single lawsuit, not a single protest group--at least that I heard about. Compare and contrast that to the ARC.

I'm not sure why the Expo Center was approved with litle or no vocal opposition from the citizenry. Do the U.P. folks care less about their community than the L.P. folks, or do the L.P. folks just blow every single thing out of proportion?

You could count me in the latter school until last weekend.

Anonymous said...

Stan, thanks for establishing this blog. However, please refer to my post under "ARC Still Coveted" for my traffic comments.
The Professor
Audubon, Pa.

Tom Borai said...

Stan, I received a call this morning advising me to check your blog site. It's amazing that you remember what transpired ten years ago. Correspondence from the Township Manager on March 24,1998 to Honorble Jon Fox with copies to Tilghman and Lawless stated," The Board of Supervisors of Lower Providence Township wish to seek your assistance, influence and support of a full interchange to route 422, at Pawlings Road.
This desperately needed project was identified in a 1989 comprehensive traffic study by McMahon Associates,and enthusiastically endorsed by the Greater Valley Forge Transportation Management Association.

This project as stated in the McMahon repoprt would greatly improve the present traffic congestion currently being experienced on Rittenhouse, Pawlings, Audubon and Egypt Roads. With additional housing units being proposed in Audubon, as well as in neighboring communities, this deplorable situation will only continue to impede the flow of traffic.
You then followed up with an editoral on April 2,1998 stating, " An on ramp on Pawlings Road would certainly ease traffic congestion on some of the Township's major roads such as Trooper and Egypt roads. It could also counter any future developments planned for the surrounding areas, including those in Chester County.

No one ever thought about an ARC or Convention center at that time.

Thanks for the plug, Stan, but there were four other thinking Supervisors on the board with me at the time.

We in Lower Providence certainly can not control what surrounding Townships do, we have our own problems to contend with.

Thanks again for the plug, I was the only one available the day of the picture.


Tom Borai

Anonymous said...

The development in UP & LP along the 422 Bypass and the Trooper/Egypt Road area over the last 15-20 years are by which Developers? The study done prior to the developments and after the developments were completed should have included not only the Local Township but Statewide builders interested in locating here. The 422 when it opened the extension to Oaks and beyond back in early 1980 did not include the Trooper Road entrance West, but yet we were assured this was all being taken care of. How wrong can two townships be when OKing building with roads that are not able to carry traffic for the employees, plus business personnel? PennDot also has never been known to be too smart when planning is necessary. Back to Oaks - The Park, since the trail went in, is nothing but a parking lot for biking not for Montg. as a whole to enjoy as it was 20 years ago. Why not make it into a very large parking lot for 422 travelers and get rid of the Park but leave the trail? There are enough traffic lights on Egypt Road in UP that could keep most of the traffic moving during week days, but never without extra help from local police departments on weekends.

P.O. in L.P. said...

Mr. Huskey; Mill Road is a Upper Providence Township road that leads into Lower Perkiomen Park owned by the citizens of Montgomery County. Where will the residents of Montgomery County park and enjoy the facilities when these programs are being held at the Convension Center? The owner of the convention center also owns property off of Mill Road, does this give him the right to interfere with the operation of the park. The County has park guards on the property,are they going to be responsible to ask for identification of tresspassers? The County better get there act togeather before this happens. The Upper Providence Township Supervisors had to know if permits were issued for this building to be transformed into a convention center. If I were a tenant of that complex like the Dump, losing my parking availabilty would demand a reduction in rent. P.S. Use all the local police you want,but, make sure they are not on duty. it's called rent a cop.

Anonymous said...

Lisa,
I started to feel your pain until I reached the end of your blog.
As a resident of LP I did not find out about the Expo center and BJ'S and hotels in UP until they where already approved.
Did you ATTEND UP meetings ?
Did you attend LP meetings ?
What is blown out of proportion in LP?

I think you are aiming your fustration in the wrong direction.
If you knocked on my door or sent me a letter asking me to join your cause I would have.

sarge said...

What kind of permits were issued when the road was cut in from Pawlings Road to the Dump complex?

Did the developer advise the County after the job was done?

Will the road that's proposed interfere with the bike path along the Perkiomen?

Did the developer contact the County about this future road,or will he tell them after it's in?

Who in the U.P. Township did the developer obtain permits from,and what did the permits allow?

Will Lowe's and Target have to hire their own security force to maintain their parking spaces.

When business builds, there are supposed to be a certain amount of parking spaces per unit.

Something about this whole business smells like a fish market not a convention center.

I don't blame the taxpayers of Upper Providence to be CONCERNED
about this particular project.

How much tax relief will it bring to the community?

The Fly said...

If the County denies the owner of the Convention Center the use of Mill Road,what's their next move?

Access to the rear of the property from Pawlings Road?

Wait-That entrance is also County property and the traffic problem will fall on the L.P. Police Department.

I for one, will not have my tax dollars spent on our police department directing traffic because of another townships mistakes.

How did the permits get issued without the knowledge of the sitting Supervisors?

Will Lowe's and Target have to supply their own security force to maintain their parking spaces?

Enough parking spaces should be present when a project is approved by the Board of Supervisors.

How do these problems happen? Who's responsible? The Manager? The Board? WHO.

u.P. Person said...

Stan, Why was all the road projects in place with the new shopping center at route 29 and 422
before construction began? I guess it's who you know.

The Board better take a hard look when BJ's and the Hotels come in to play.

We need a few more traffic lights in U.P.

Lisa said...

Anonymous 12:25

Perhaps you misunderstand. I used to think you guys were all over-reacting about everything since we don't have anywhere near that type of drama over here on the other side of the creek.

I don't think that anymore. I think we over here in U.P. under react. We just assume the township will take care of itself and we don't need to be concerned with deveopment or planning. Yet two years ago a couple hundred housing units opened up all at once and now my sleepy little town has a waiting line to get on 422 going east every morning. And we did nothing then. Now I'm going to be held prisoner in my home every weekend, and though I can sit and gripe about the township, I also should have been more involved before it came to this. We all should have.

No, I don't go to township meetings. But I think I'm going to start.

Anonymous said...

You are now seeing what a lack of good planning can bring to the Expo situation. How in the world can the Expo which brings a huge traffic counts on the weekend have enough parking for all of the uses on the property? Upper Providence better look at who is running their planning department and traffic consulting. I am tired of see LP being blamed for a traffic situation that does not even originate in the Township. The residents of LP often take their fustrations out at LP officials when they should be over at UP screaming at them. The Oaks interchange has totally screwed up LP traffic. Last week you saw what happens when the govt officials in UP operate in a non-transparent fashion. Believe me, this is only the beginning. If the people who read this blog want to do something, go to UP and start raing their voices. Its time UP official step up to the plate and spend their pharmeuctical revenue monies and fix their own traffic problems rather than LP doing for them.

Anonymous said...

How could a convention center just sneak up on everyone? I live in WN and have for the past 3 years. I read papers and watch TV news. I became aware of this when I saw the commercials for the train show last weekend.

I hope the townships are receiving a lot of tax revenue used to reduce property taxes, because the residents of the Oaks area are going to be inconvenienced for many years to come.

Anonymous said...

Stan, why is your face blue?

Upset in UP said...

Sources close to Upper Prov admin tell me that when the UP Supervisors approved this Expo plan they were to get several million dollars of road improvements along Egypt Rd. Where are those improvements and when will they be built? The Supervisors are way tooo quiet on this issue, wave a few million bucks around and see what you get, just look what Dininny took from the ARC, 3 million for road improvements and where are they and when are they coming? More that likely, after the ARC is built and the residents can't move around Audubon. These two local governments stink, shame, shame, on the voters who put them in office, they better pay attention to who they elect in the future.

Villager said...

To Lisa Mossie,

I feel for you but can't reach you from way over here in LP. Yes I do believe that Lower Providence residents care much more about their community than do UP residents. We here in LP have a sense of community, many of us are long time residents and we have many more older homes that you do. You have many more transients and newer homes that have been built in the past decade. Your population has grown exponentially compared to us.

Your supervisors allow almost any new development without any township resident's input. How on earth could you let them put up an EXPO center without any well though out traffic management plan?? It blows me away that no one in UP cares about their community. I am glad that I live in a community where there is citizen involvement, if we didn't go to township meetings and get involved, our supervisors would give Neilson and other developers anything they wanted. Just look how long it took CVS and the ARC to go through the planning process, I think it took CVS almost five years after our group filed a suit against them, and at least two years for the ARC and they still have legal battles to overcome. I doubt if it will ever be built, and to tell you the truth their traffic plan brought all their 750,000 visitors through the new Station Road extension in Upper Prov. How cool is that? At least our supervisors were trying to keep all that new traffic in your township.

Your residents better wake up before it's too late, next year, they may not be able to get out of their driveways to get to the store on weekends. Maybe you could write a column about this issue and wake up the dead in Upper Prov, they deserve a wake up call and then it's up to them. Good luck Lisa.

The Moll said...

Thanks to Mr. Rotenberg article in today Times Herald concerning the denial by the County for the useage of Mill Road as an access road to the Convention center.

The new route is a right turn from 422 to Egypt Road to Pawlings Road to the County parking lot on Pawlings Road.

PROBLEM: The parking lot has a low volume permit issued by Pendot. The County holds the permit, therefore, holds the trump card not to allow this to happen.

Since these are State Roads, State Police should be there to handle all traffic problems, not L.P. finest.

Like the Fly, I will not tolerate the use of my tax dollars to benefit a profit maker not benefiting my Township.

The Moll

Anonymous said...

LP has since the late 90's and to the current administration always actively worked with federal, state and county officials to bring much needed funding to this area to get the cloverleaf at 422 & Trooper Road completed. It was LPT that organized and led a contingent of neighboring townships down the turnpike to Washington DC 2 or 3 years back to lobby for funding. The money being used to widen 422 right now is a direct result of that effort. Nobody in LPT has ever forgotten the need to get this done sooner rather than later as development all along the 422 corridor is only going to continue.

Anonymous said...

OK, so Mill Road is a County Road...what does that have to do with properties and businesses that use that street to access their business. We use that Road/Street to view the river with our Grandkids. Most of the time it has little traffic, except for the Trail, and occasionally various types of "Ball" Games...then forget about it. Going thru this area to the Convention Center and the road "private" from Pawlings Road, should be enough to keep the traffic moving - the parking is the concern only.

joe the nerd said...

Let me get this straight, you are for installing an overpass at Pawlings Road but you complain in the paper about out-of-control spending.


Where is the money coming for your overpass (and your Norristown cultural center)?


Over the last 8 years the republicans who have controlled the switches have spent like drunken sailors and then ask for tax cuts. It makes no sense.


If you want to build stuff like you are asking for then you need to raise taxes. Does that go against your conservative mantra?


We can't afford to place an interchange at Pawlings Rd from a Federal, State, County or Lower Providence perspective with respect to monies.


We can't afford to place an interchange there because the entire road network would have to be changed for that part of town into a character that those residents don't want.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lisa,
Sorry I did not fully understand your blog and thank you for responding.
If you attend UP meetings I might see and hear you as I plan to attend to question the travel routes to attend the Expo Center.
I moved to the country to be away from the city and the townships seem to want to make our areas into a city.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Huskey, No need to answer the NERD, He's so far out of reality it's a sin.

When and where did anyone mention an overpass at Pawlings Road.

I believe you stated that a former Supervisor suggested TEN years ago an OFF ramp onto 422 from Pawlings Road. I believe at that time it was to alleviate traffic at the corner of Pawlings and Egypt Roads.

If I remember correctly, it would have moved traffic out of the Industrial Park helping to retain the business in that complex.

The Nerd shoould attend the L.P. meetings, Chairman Dininny got us 3 mil. for an on ramp to the ARC,don't know where the additional millions will come from for the OFF ramp.

I believe Mr. Lawlees (Democrat) at the time objected to the proposal because of a lone resident on Pawlings Road.

Let's face it,the building is an old locker manufacturing building, if the owner promised major road improvements they should have been made before a U&O was issued.

It will be interesting to see how the Fire Marshall finds the condition of the building. This should have been done BEFORE the first show was held.

The old saying" Money talks and BS walks."

UP RESIDENT said...

Hey Gramps: When you take your Grandkids to the park to view the Perkiomen Creek you have a place to park your vechicle.

If the County gives Mr. Neilson the right to cut a road into the Convention Center and the parking spaces are all taken where do you think people will park?

In the park of course,and where do you think Gramps and the Grandkids Park? Maybe in the Genuardi's parking lot if your lucky.

Maybe you would be more concerned if your Grandkids were playing little league soccer at the park, that road is not made for commercial traffic. I thank the commissioners for their stand on this issue.

Grateful in UP said...

I want to thank the Commissioners for preventing the use of the Lower Perkiomen Park to access the for profit Neilson Expo Center. If this were allowed, thousands of cars would be diverted through the park where Gramps and his grandkids come to enjoy the peace and solitude of the Perkiomen Creek. A lot of kids use the park for ballgames and a lot of young adults use the park for volleyball tournaments. Many folks just go to park and either walk, jog, or cycle on the Marino County Trail.

It would be a shame to allow private enterprise to make a profit off this peaceful parkland. Who would gain and who would loose by this ill conceived proposal, not us residents, that's for sure.

Way to go Commissioners, keep up the good work!

And by the way, what township officials thought up this plan, they should be taken to the woodshed!

I think I will join Lisa Mossie at the UP Township meetings, and hats off to the residents of LP for keeping their Supervisors under their watchful eye.

Anonymous said...

A need for more space for rec. use is now available in L.P. along Pawlings Road and the Trail Parking Lot. The Private Back Entrance to Upper Prov. Shopping/Gym is very convenient for all LP Residents. Check with the LP Township Supervisors to find out how much property still is available for your Soccer Little League (The County Park is in a too congested area)- Saint Gabes contribution to LP has been a blessing and a curse, depending on who you are talking to. Right now it would be a good idea to check out who owns what and how to get there from where ever you might be...it is getting very confusing.

Anonymous said...

Do you remember when our County Parks were for County Residents and your car ownership had to be presented if you wanted to use the facility?? Green Lane, is the one that stands out. Now, our guards are there to do what? Oh, the Trail, I forgot. All reservations for activities that need be made should be made through our County Park Office in Norristown - they do have computers you know - and the Guards and Maintenance personnel with their computers/cell phone,that we all have, will do their duty. The answer to out-of-County residents is Sorry,No parking if you are not a resident. Sounds good to me. Let the kids enjoy all our County Parks, which we have paid for with our taxes.

U.P. Resident said...

What in the HELL is the County Commissioners thinking if they allow Mr. Neilson to build his 600-by-60 foot parking lot on County property?

The property he's suggesting is used by sunbathers, model airplane flying enthusiast, and flag football.
When did the County start taking care of private enterprises?

Mr. Neilson transported thousands of tons of fill in the rear of his property off Mill Road, why not use that as a parking lot? Wait, that's his property, word has it a future hotel may go in at that location.

The temporary road that he installed while the sewer line was being built was macadam on top of dirt, not to stable for commercial traffic to drive on.


No parking lot thank you, the people have spoken.

UP set in UP said...

Hey Lisa,

Did I read this right in this morning's TH, Neilson wants to pave over parkland in Lower Perk Park. Is that right? What can he be thinking, if the Commissioners let him get away with it, where will the kids play, you can't have parkland and pave over it too, any dummy knows that. I just don't get it, where is his traffic study that the UP Supervisors approved, I heard that it is the same outfit out of Pottstown that came up with the ARC traffic plan for LP. Maybe they can route some of the traffic down New Mill Rd. through the Lower Perk Park and across the R/R Bridge up the hill through the parking lot and across Pawlings Rd. to their new site. Now that sounds like a plan!

Come on Lisa write a story about all this and get the rest of UP residents in a tizzzy.

Anonymous said...

The song goes something like this..They don't know what they got until it's gone, tare it down, put up a PARKING LOT. That is what happened in Norristown, and now UP & LP too. Stan, you said once, in a reply to an article.."That's Progress?"

Anonymous said...

Who was on the "Impact Study" when it came to Shannondel - Neilson, comes to mind. This certainly would not have made the whole study worth a hill of beans. Now, maybe he also was included in UP studies..I don't know, but it sure would help to resolve all the questions lingering out there. Who, How, When & Where??

Anonymous said...

The Village of Audubon - It has that certain ring - but hold on, if you have a Village, does that not consist of homes that have people living in them? As fond as our Township Leaders are for caring about progress and to make sure the "Jones Township" does not have more of whatever, the tendency now is having them become over zealous in making sure this village is "Thriving" (a word used by DiPaolo). We now have or are in the process of destroying this village. If homes on Egypt are zoned V/C, then the homes backing them on Park Avenue should be zoned the same. Who wants a commercial bldg. backing on to a private property? Place your sidewalks along Egypt if you feel they are needed to go swimming/play golf/go to the shopping center.. but, why change the zoning of these homes? The businesses that at one time (5 to 10 Years) made Audubon, a place where young couples/workers visited are now gone - exactly who are we trying to please?? Mr. DiPaolo lives where?? Where is that master plan you certainly have if you think this type of zoning will make "Audubon Village" thrive. Why not share this in your next newsletter or since we all read the TH, have their Reporter, Carl R., bring it to life so we can all see this vision.

Anonymous said...

Hey wait a minute; Did not the Times Herald write that the team of Dininey,Sassu,Alteri vote to have that zoning changed? DiPaolo
voted No, and Brown abstained.
Why make statements when you don't know what your talking about.

Anonymous said...

You are correct DiPalo did not vote for the Zoning Plan - but his remark that the village area of Audubon was really not thriving and needed commerial development to help it revive. He also stated he wanted to make it a neighborhood where you are able to walk to local businesses.. The Township should put in sidewalks and maintain them and then local businesses would thrive because homeowners/apartment dwellers will be able to WALK to the establishments... Now the "Master Plan" - do they have one or is it a bit by bit tare down,rebuild until the village disappears? Your take l/19 ?? This is an open forum.

joe the nerd said...

Hey, Anonymous of 1/12/9 @ 2:17


I don’t know why you are bashing me. I don’t go to the meetings anymore because I have a life other than politics. That doesn’t allow you to diminish my capacity to comment on what I see. (Please refer to this as being a free country or something like that…)

What is funny is that it appears you are on the same side of the issues as I am.
Ex-Chairman Dininny getting 3 mil. for an on ramp to the ARC and he doesn't know where the additional millions will come from for the OFF ramp. I think he is irresponsible as you do. (Mr. Huskey mentioned the overpass at Pawlings Road in his original post – that is what I was responding to.)

Again, I don’t go to the meetings anymore because I have a life other than politics. I can also be ignored by my dog just as well as being ignored by the three supervisors who are hell bent on messing up my township. I can be ignored by my dog in my living room. I have to go to the township building to be ignored by the supervisors. I save time and gas this way.

I love your comment here:

Let's face it,the building is an old locker manufacturing building, if the owner promised major road improvements they should have been made before a U&O was issued. … It will be interesting to see how the Fire Marshall finds the condition of the building. This should have been done BEFORE the first show was held.


So you are asking for the local governments to be actually responsive to the rules they put forth. You are asking them to balance the needs of the developers against the needs and wishes of the residents.


And you are the one calling me so far out of reality it is a sin.


Priceless!

Anonymous said...

You can't drive on Egypt let alone walk on it. Get a life.

Anonymous said...

You want the Township to put sidewalks in==Boy are you a dreamer. Where were you when they did a patch job on curbs in the Township==Sidewalks are the responsibility of the property owner==Just ask Dininey he'll tell you. There are no curbs or sidewalks on Mr. Dininey's street.
Why should he worry.

Someone out there said...

Joe the NERD; The two caballeros and senorita don't ignore you, they are not used to someone with a question with merit.

The main reason they ignore you, you outclass them with intelligence, they can't handle anyone that is more up on issues then themselves.

Continue to attend the meetings Joe, there's a new Chairman who talks more than the last one, you may have to listen to how great of an x cop he was in West Conshohocken, or how he used to be a cub scout, but that comes with the territory.

Bring your dog, you can tell them it's a seeing eye dog, you'll get more minutes that way.

Keep up the good work,Priceless, you scare them.

Anonymous said...

Joe the Nerd:
I second the previous comment regarding Joe the Nerd Joe, please continue attending the BOS meetings and asking your intelligent questions and giving your comments just to keep Sassu off balance and sweating your next question. Agreed we all are tired of ex-cop stories and waffling on his part. We on the Peninsula love you Joe!
Peinsula Dweller
Lower Providence

Anonymous said...

All Posts on 1/19... A walk along Egypt Road, Pawlings Road and Park Avenue is a "Walk on the Wild Side." Been there, done that and hope never to do it again. Really, do our Supervisors think a sidewalk in all sections of Audubon or LP would help the businesses we now have? Well, if the businesses think it will - let them share the wealth to help build and support the upkeep of these sidewalks.

Villager said...

I was astonished when I read the paper the other day, imagine rezoning half of Audubon to Village Commercial. What in the world are the township supervisors drinking or thinking? What an ill conceived plan, these lots are very small, where will the customers park, and will they be backing out onto Egypt Rd? It's nuts!

Why would the property owners go along with such nonsense, surely they can't believe that their property is now worth twice as much as it was last year. Greed should not be a moving force when good planning and zoning issues are at stake. Oh well, what do you expect from these amigos, when are they up for re-election?

I thought our local elected officials were under control and using good common sense. Don't they see what horrendous traffic was bestowed upon us Villagers when the Expo Center opened up this year. They are just making things worse. Will these newly rezoned properties be reassessed? I hope so and soon.

joe the nerd said...

Anonymous of January 19, 2009 11:18 AM

You can't drive on Egypt let alone walk on it. Get a life.

I agree with you. A number of years ago a hit and run driver took the life of a pedestrian on Egypt Road. I remember stopping to see what I could do. After seeing the man pass away - all I saw was people bothered by the time they had to spend waiting for the cops and EMT’s to arrive.


Since that time, I have seen the need for walkable streets in LP. It is not a luxury any more. We have an older population that, in some cases, should not be driving. Their only way out may be the shoe-leather express. It is now a matter of public safety that the sidewalks are built.

Anonymous said...

Don't blame "The Three Amigos" for the latest VC mess. Chris DiPaolo's entire election platform 3 yrs ago was VC reform, and it's taken him his entire term so far to even draft half an ordinance to address it.

There were two zoning changes up for vote - Chris voted for the one the residents didn't want & which the Planning Commission recommended against, a proposed change of 7 properties from VC to Profession Business Office (PBO). Sassu, Dininny & Altieri voted against the change, leaving those properties VC as they already are. Rick abstained. This was reported in the Times Herald.

The requested change of other properties from R2 to VC, which the residents did support, was approved.

I think it's interesting - and kind of insulting - to note that during the ARC hearings last year, it came to light that Upper Providence had actually passed a resolution expressing their concerns about the traffic the ARC project might generate and its purported impact on UP.

In retrospect, after the Great Train Show Debacle, I think LPT is the one who ought to be banging on UP's door demanding answers and solutions to the ACTUAL traffic problems generated by their excessive development, since a lot of that volume backed up throughout LP. UP needs to put their rubber stamp away and be as concerned about their impact on the region as they expect other municipalities to be about them.

LP has won awards for traffic management, among other things. Until UP has some of those under their belt, they have no room to talk.

Anonymous said...

Both UP & LP are caught in the Web created by Builders that have purchased or agreed to purchase properties from Farmers/Land Owners at an unreasonable price at the time of signing. Now, PennDot and our Township Roads are unable to carry this traffic.. A farm consisting of 50 - 100 Acres or a home consisting of a few acres has little impact on traffic, but the Townships did not consider this when ReZoning - and now look what a mess we have. It was nice to live in the country.

Anonymous said...

Stan:
Since I am a friend, supporter, and a former member of the ad hoc Village Commercial Committee of Supervisor Chris DiPaolo, I must respond to the critcism posted by "Anonymous" dated 1/21/09. Mr. DiPaolo is one of the honest and hardest working Supervisors that I have had the pleasure to know and work with in my 36 years in Lower Providence Township. He has always been for the people and never has considered "what's in it for me" Mr Dipaolo and the VC Committee had worked diligently over the past 18 months attempting to do what was right and proper for our Township. Not at any time did any of the "Three Amigo's offer any advice or guidance to our committee or as a matter of fact even attend one of our meetings. Incidently none of the committee members ever received any acknwoledgement or thanks from any of the "Three Amigos"...but they are certainly quick to critize or condemn. Yes folks, Mr. DiPaolo should be applauded for all his efforts, not attacked for making the right decisions... but then folks, this is your working Board of Supervisors, and one of them will be running for reelection, Let's give him an answer in April. I know my family will! I am also proud to sign my name.
Mike Comroe
Audubon, Pa

Villager said...

Thank you Lisa Mossie for the article in today's Times Herald, you certainly hit the nail on the head.

Now you know why our residents stay involved in township business, hopefully to avoid the same kind of monkey business. Now maybe the residents of UP will start to get involved before it is tooo late for all of us who live along the Egypt Rd corridor.

Now I read that Neilson wants to put another strip mall on Egypt Rd. and Pinetown Rd. I sure hope that the supervisors put away their rubber stamp and take a good, long, hard, look at this traffic generator that this will become. Maybe this a good place for a Super WAWA, I'm sure the board would go for that.

Anonymous said...

Villager.... Wawa already was turned down for that Pinetown Area. Maybe a Parking Lot for the Expo, with Van Service when there is another "BIG" happening over there in Upper Prov. Neilson could try that, because that area is nothing but fill, so construction???

Simon said...

To you who wrote this blog;

"LP has won awards for traffic management, among other things. Until UP has some of those under their belt, they have no room to talk. January 21, 2009 6:54 AM"

Where are the many awards for traffic management in LP, I don't see them in the trophy case, perhaps you could show them on the big screen at the next meeting, I assume that you are one of the 3 Amigo's supervisors venting on Chris DiPaolo for all his hard work. Bring it on!

Is that correct that the new improved intersection in Audubon central got a failing grade- after the improvements, who designed that, the same folks that took care of the Expo traffic plan???

Anonymous said...

Maybe those who have seen what poor planning has done in UP can now appreciate what LP has been doing. LP has been trying for the last five years or so to correct UP traffic problems in LP with all the through traffic generated by the Oaks Shopping Center and now the Expo. One small village center at Pinetown and Egypt will not even put a dent in the traffic being generated by the Oaks area. The village center will capture only pass-through to Oaks. The true problem starts in Oaks and finishes in Oaks. Everyone needs to open their eyes and see the picture - the traffic generator is the Oaks 422 interchange and that is controlled by UP. Stop blaming LP for UP poor planning. People use LP as a pass- through because 422 is severly congested and needs to be widen. When you solve 422 problems, you will eventually solve LP problem with pass-through traffic. Developers have realized this problem and have tried to take advantage of this pass through traffic in LP with little success with the stricter zoning in place and with proper planning. Have you wondered by LP is always in the news? Thats because residents realize the effects of this pass-through traffic probelm in LP and are constantly trying to keep developers from taking advantage of this situation. Its high time the residents of UP stand up and see the problem for what it really is - a neighboring township to LP building a major destination point at the edge of their township where their own UP residents are least affected because they live on the west and southern ends of the Oaks Center; which has created traffic problems in LP because where LP residents are the most affected by any development in Oaks. I would also suggest that since the Expo is a regional problem, where was the Montgomery county Planning position on this? I bet they did even comment on this Expo project and was wisked under the table. The county is at fault as much as UP. The Expo is a destination point plain and simple and poor planningby UP is the problem. UP you have seen nothing yet. Wait until more hotels and shopping stores go in the Oaks area. Oaks should be renamed Gridlock because this is what you will see. UP supervisors cried out when the ARC is being planned- whre was the planning for the Expo? LP residents did not even have a chance to express their comments- no public hearing - nothing? Welcome to Gridlock,PA

Anonymous said...

I think that it's not only diligent residents in LP (and there are certainly many of those, aside from the typical NIMBYs and general malcontents every township has) but our elected officials, for the most part, do have the big picture in mind and the residents' best interests at heart.

I think it's wrong to presume the negative position that were it not for those 'diligent residents', madness and mayhem would reign supreme. Our officials have to be responsive to not only their voters & taxpayers, but their neighbors too. Of course in public service no matter what you do, somebody won't like it. That's a given. And if you're in it for thanks and gratitude, most of the time you won't get it from anyone.

You'd better be in it for the right reasons because if you're in it to get strokes, you're going to have a long wait.

Trooper Mary said...

If the BIG picture is changing ordinances to allow higher buildings, you are correct, when you say the three amigos have their friends at heart. It all depends who gives you the thanks and gratitude.

Anonymous said...

Trooper Mary, you last post really hit the nail on the head and it's so true! What we see and hear is Mr. Developer, if you don't like the current zoning, just let us know and "We Three Amigos" will change it for you" Isn't there a Mr. Vincent Fumo on trial in Phila. for selling similar favors?. Our time will come!
Pete Schrack
Trooper, Pa

Anonymous said...

Lower Providence Township has that famous Egypt Road, that extends approx. four miles from West Norriton to Upper Providence Township. This fact given we all would believe there should not be too many problems on such a short stretch of highway. The matter is our little corner of the world is Gridlock ... Our County Roads feed into this one State Road and no matter what we do, it just will not help the situation. So, for now start earlier in the AM (1 1/2 hours)and add another (1 1/2 hour) to travel home. Yes, it comes to "Sun Rise - Sun Set" for the Verbs, the price paid for living almost in the country.

elvisisdaman said...

I have waited to comment on the expo traffic Mess Yes the 1st Sat. it was beyond horrible I live on Rittenhouse and travel to the far post 3 times on saturdays for soccer and also on that Saturday I was between Methacton high and the expo area I was in shock over the gridlock I thought that there was an accident or something I turned KYW on sitting the 1st trip to the far post along Pawlings looking over the bridge down below to 422 which was sitting for as far as I could see  in both directions I took the road off Pawlings both in and out  It was the parking that was a hardship as well.Now we are 3 shows into the expo and I am still following the same route to get to the far post and back THE TRAFFIC IS MOVING.I believe the 1st weekend there were 2 shows and it was a grand opening so to speak but if we are honest it has been ok since . You can travel around and get from area to area with out sitting, the traffic is moving I am thankful for that .I also would like to say I do not believe that the new mill road is for parking but as another route to get to the expo. Now that we  are 3 weeks into the expo center and parking at the marketplace is blocked with people directing traffic IT has improved. I would also like to say the Neilsons live and travel in Audubon just like the rest of us ,they sat and sat on all of these roads that day trying to get from their homes to their destinations just like you and I.

Anonymous said...

While I agree with the comments posted on the 25th that traffic has not been an issue since the first/opening weekend for the expo center, I have doubts about upcoming weekends. So far, there has been a "zoo", trade shows and a “liquidation” expo, hardly large traffic generators.

The real test will be valentine's day weekend - a double show with a cbs-3/cw-57/philly inquirer sponsored wellness expo, AND a spa/patio/pool show. And the weekend after is the suburban home and flower show - which began ads on tv the first week of jan!!!

I live off of pawlings rd (by the way - thanks UPPER PROVIDENCE for diverting YOUR traffic problem through MY TOWNSHIP ie. the back entrance to the expo center off of pawlings, glad we are at your beck and call to solve your negligence and lack of due diligence). I am reserving judgment until the weekends I listed above have past.

The take home message - everyone get to your respective township meetings! Believe me, I will be at LP's making my voice heard.

Anonymous said...

Lisa Mossie is only just NOW concerned about what Upper Providence is up to?? Why now? Because it’s in HER back yard, that’s why. Most people don’t give a hoot what their government does as long as it doesn’t impact them. Then they care. At that point, the lengthy process of project planning, development & approval is usually over. Your opportunity to have a say is usually gone by then. You need to at least take a look at the agenda of your township’s meetings so if something is coming up that COULD impact you, you’ll be there to have a say. At this point, Lisa, it’s a little like shutting the barn door after the horse has been stolen, isn’t it?

I’d be willing to bet this project was on UP’s agendas and publicly advertised over at least a couple YEARS before it got to this point. I bet they did traffic studies and all that too. Just because you didn’t inform yourself doesn’t mean your township is trying to pull a fast one. Where’ve you been?

Villager said...

To elvisisdaman,

I enjoyed your post until someone said that you are probably a renter from Neilson since he owns most of the houses on Rittenhouse Rd. I agree with you that the last few shows didn't cause much trouble, but check out this web site www.phillyexpocenter.com/calendar/ for the upcoming events. Some on the schedule will clog our highways again, and Neilson and the UP administrators will still be unprepared for another debacle like the train and gun show. Mark my words, this will reoccur again and us LP Villagers will be the ones to suffer, not the UP residents who quietly keep their heads in the sand.

Anonymous said...

After reading Lisa Mossie's comments here, I have but one question to ask her. Where was she and what was she doing while her Upper Providence BOS was running haywire? Maybe she needs to wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late. Life is not perfect and her political involvement could mean something to her township.
Peninsula Dweller
Lower Providence, Pa

Lisa said...

Hey, Anonymous Twit 1/26/09 8:11 AM:
If you read my comments from January 9, you will see I admit just what you are accusing me of. And what, so I didn't do or say anything up till now, now I don't have a right to say anything? The supervisors serve ME and MY COMMUNITY. I feel it's better to hold them accountable late than never.

Everybody who is involved in politics has some issue which eventually spurs them into action on some level. For you though, I suppose you have been been involved in your community since birth, which is why you can preach to me.

Not that we'd eever know for sure since you lack the guts to sign your name to your post.

joe the nerd said...

Lisa,

Your comments taken alone are proper. You would have a right to be ticked at someone taking a shot at you for not being involved.

However, you have been very hard on those who have been involved. No one would argue you have treated with derision those who have been fighting the ARC.


I am sorry, but some of these folks do have a right to be mad at you. You had been part of the problem, it remains to be seen if you will become part of the solution.


It is one thing to become aware of your surroundings and become spurred onto doing something publicly. It is another to already have been doing public things, like attacking activists from one of your pulpits (here, your blog, and your weekly column) and expect the people you have been working against to embrace you at your eureka moment.


St. Paul was pretty good at ripping the people he eventually joined. Here’s to hoping that you will find sight and insight on your road to Damascus.

Lisa said...

Joe the Nerd,

It was on this blog and this thread that I first verbalized how I originally felt about the ARC and it's opponents. I have since changed my mind.

You are incorrect that I have been working actively against those campaigning against the ARC. I have made it a policy to basically steer clear of the issue, since I do not have all of the facts. I have never mentioned it on my blog or this blog. In fact, my eyes usually glaze over when you LP people eventually hijack every thread on Stan's blog, no matter the subject, and I lose interest in the discussion. This is simply because the discussion is characterized by a lot of "inside baseball" code eg. the "three amigos" etc. I'm unfamiliar with the players, the lingo and the drama, therefore I cannot follow the dialog and therefore refrain from commenting. This is quite different from your accusation of my "attacking activists."

I know you and I have disagreed in the past, but I do not think it was over the ARC. Being who I am and doing what I do, I hardly expect the entire Norristown area to "embrace" me at my "eureka moment". Indeed, there are people who will disagree with me just to disagree with me, even if they are in general agreement with me on this one issue.

Not to torture the metaphor further, but perhaps our "roads to Damascus" will eventually meet, since you may be on one yourself, my friend.

Trooper Mary said...

Hey lisa and Joe the Nerd:

When you book your trip to Damascus, please make it one way.

Lisa,
Lessons on Lower Providence politics can be had on the second and third Thursdays of the month.

Joe will be glad to lead you through it, if you have a stron stomach.

Frodo said...

Once the Wyeth / Pfizer deal goes down, and the Collegeville site is closed down this will all be moot, since the area will be a ghost town, and UP's tax base will be decimated.

Anonymous said...

Stan, Would it be possible for you to send your ace reporter to King of Prussia,you know the place, left over the bridge. Penndot is located there,maybe, just maybe, he can talk to Ms. LaPenta and get the scoop on why the Pawlings Road Driveway may not be kosher. Why do they call it a Driveway when more than 1600 cars a day travel over it? You can do it---Stan.

Montco PA Dem said...

Frodo -- I think you're jumping to conclusions by saying "Once the Wyeth-Pfizer deal goes down..."

As I've been saying to anyone who'll listen, this is not a done deal.

Especially once word gets out that four of the five banks lending Pfizer $68 billion for this are doing it with taxpayers' TARP funds.

Think about that -- your tax dollars will fund a deal that ends up putting something like 20,000 people out of work.

Makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

What is good for business (to grow a company) is usually very bad for most employees that are gobbled up with the merger. Look at the banking situation - merger, after merger and now all of a sudden we are owned by the Bank of England/Spain. Employees that have been with various companies/banks are out of work, because the company that has more up-to-date facilities or have larger followings will remain in the employee of these "NEW" companies/banks. Interesting! A faithful employee can not count on having his position or any position within a newly merged company, now that is sad.

Frodo said...

Montco PA Dem:

I think I am the only one listening to you however, about Pfizer/Wyeth deal. Local pols, have been very quiet. My cynical view is, that if it doesn't go down, it will because of shareholder resistance (i.e. lowered dividends, diluted stock), and not from any political outrage.

Anonymous said...

It's all about being competitive in free markets (democracy, not socialism). Whoever can be most competitive - by operating most most efficiently, getting the most productivity with the least amount of resources (people, money) and making the most profit are the companies who are left standing. If you can't figure out how to be lean and highly productive, you simply can't make money in the global marketplace.

Everyone wants inexpensive or reasonably priced consumer goods, but you can't price things reasonably and still stay in business if you have high overhead costs. Head count is overhead.

It's idiotic to have lots of employees on the payroll making $20 or $30 or more an hour when many companies can outsource the same jobs to other countries where the pay ranges are lower (and often, the skillsets are better). Or, merge with a former competitor, share assets and resources, get smarter processes in place, and do more with less.

Of course the increase in profit margins goes to the shareholders and not necessarily people in need of less expensive pharmaceuticals.

Everyone supposedly dislikes the practice of outsourcing jobs, or merging and eliminating jobs, but the reality is, without it, practically everything we buy would cost considerably more than it does now. Or, worse, the companies who provide services or products would simply go out of business. Then all their employees would be laid off, not just some, and the products they make wouldn't be made or sold at all.

It's survival of the fittest.

Anonymous said...

Pfizer/Wyeth Merger will not only cause a disruption of the Tax Base, but traffic flow on 422 Bypass and the Ridge should show roads that will be less traveled.

Anonymous said...

The Dividends paid on Wyeth Stock has never been that great but the company is solid as far as I am concerned. Politics is not entering into the Merger. It is the have and have nots when it comes down to NEW products on the market or in the pipeline.

Anonymous said...

"The Road Will Be Traveled Often" is a correct statement Stan...There is a half page ad in the Phila. Inq. this Sunday, advertising Suburban Home & Flower Show (2/19-22). Please contact the Expo Center and have them, starting NOW to explain the PARKING & DRIVING ARRANGEMENS in our LOCAL NEWSPAPERS (TIMES HERALD & THE PHOENIX). A need to know in advance only makes common sense. Carl R. has a great article covering King of Prussia's ongoing project at the former golf course. now he is the one needed to follow through on this, As it could be another Neightmare in UP/LP.

Anonymous said...

Stan are you ready to travel Egypt and 422 Feb. 19 - 22? Well, the Oaks Area will be "The road will be traveled often" again. Hope we see some action regarding the flow and parking arrangements, now and every day until the Home & Flower Show begins, in our Times Herald. Neilson needs to spend money publisizing locally and in BOLD PRINT how this is going to be handeled .

Frodo said...

Anonymous Jan 29 (2:04).

I think you are mixing your systems. Democracy is a political system. Socialism is an economic system (I think you meant Capitalism.)

What do you call it when the government finances the capital for a takeover? Socialist capitalism? And is it survival of the fittest when the government finances the weak to buy up a healthy company?

Anyway... hoping they handle the flower show traffic better than the train show, it seems like traffic hasn't been as much of an issue for the smaller shows that have been at the expo center.

Anonymous said...

Home & Flower Show is exactly what is needed this time of the year. We have quite a few friends from Berks County that usually come down to the various Trade Shows, but this one the Home & Garden will have more of an interest for the whole family. I for one am interested in how to reorganize my flower beds - they are in need of more variety and color. So, with that said, I have given directions to my friends and they will come to my home and only two cars will be needed instead of six. Sorry, no sleep over - they will arrive either Friday or Sat. I hope the traffic holds up as it has on these off weekends.

elvisisdaman said...

No I am Not a renter from Neilson. But reading the rest of the posts upto today Looks like I should wait as well after The double shows that are booked. One can only hope and pray that all will go well. I travel in the back way every weekend as it is the most convient way to get from Rittenhouse to the far post . it is very congested at Rittenhouse and Egypt on a regular weekday. I am closer to Audubon road so I try to steer clear of Egypt and Rittenhouse unless I am making a right as it is near impossible to go left at most times during the week. I will try to hold judement until these double expos are over.I will also keep taking the back ways through the developement to cross over Egypt to get to Park .

Anonymous said...

I have a problem with our signaling lights.. We have private clubs, unfinished developments exiting on to State Highways. The rule was at one time, private,clubs and roads that were not dedicated had to give way to traffic at the light. Now, it is first come, if you are luck, will be able to turn left without being smashed. The Officials, County and Township Officials should take note of this very serious condition.

Anonymous said...

You bet Problems with traffic lights need to be addressed. There are two, due to my weekly travel arrangements that need to be addressed and they are at Limerick Diner on the Ridge and Swamp Pike (this what we call it) and the other is Crawford Road and Egypt Road. These traffic lights should have some type of warning or an arrow for those coming out of a Private Driveway. How does the State Highway Department decide the rule in these cases?? I checked there isn't anything in the drivers Handbook for drivers to go by.

Anonymous said...

Great Article in todays paper regarding our "Firefighters"... When the discussion was brought up regarding Conshohocken and Audubon the ongoing problems with buildings and code enforcement, we did touch on Fire Companies and First Responders. Here is another thought - Road Congestion! We know the Limerick Power Plant is sound, but their plan for escape from the area around the plant is impossible- congestion. Now how are firefighters going to reach their stations and assist when any problems arise as above if we continue to give no thought about the well traveled roads? Volunteer Firefighters do not live at the firestation and Volunteering is a gift to our towns and townships (a small donation is given yearly). The communities that have a development within a development should consider having their own fire department with a paid crew. Retired people or people living in areas that require special attention to their guests need this security and the township should not be given the burden, no matter how much in taxes are paid.

Anonymous said...

It looks like the area of the Expo Center in Oaks and K 0f P Convention Center will be very busy on Feb. 19-22. Exactly how is the traffic being handled at these centers? It should be interesting since the economy, as one blogger stated, is bad and attendance should be way down...really! I live in Audubon and traffic has always been a problem.

Anonymous said...

Interesting to see how smoothly the traffic was handled and parking for the Cradle of Liberty Council's(Valley Forge Council)Encampment. The Boy Scouts are quite fortunate to have the cooperation of LP Township, where the Encampment is held but on the National Park Property of Valley Forge. I have watched and helped many years with this great encampment and if you have ever been a part of the Boy Scouts Programs --- "Thank You For Helping To Make A Difference."

Anonymous said...

Glad so many locals and visitors to this area were able to see Scouting at Valley Forge. Quite a few out-of-towners are staying for the "Presidents Day Celebration",which comes at a great time for those that are on a budget and of course "No School". This weekend they are treated to 2 great happenings in the Park. I wish we would be able to have more coverage before, during and after an event in the Valley Forge Area.

Mike said...

Lower Providence is in luck. I was told by a neighbor that Mr. Borai circulated a petition and is running for Supervisor again in town. His continuing service to the community is refreshing. It seems that even back in the old days he was a visionary.

Anonymous said...

It's beyond me why the Lower Providence Republican Committee would spit in the face of someone with the experience and history of Mr. Borai.

The Republican endorsement goes to 2 unknowns?!

Unbelievable.

Anonymous said...

Who exactly are our Committee People in Lower Prov. that make all the decisions on which candidate to support? If possible, we would like to have a list of both the Republican and Democratic Committee People, so that we can once again judge for ourself if our Committee People's choices are correct in our estimation. Many years ago, most people believed a lot of thought went into the decisions that were made, but today, it is who you know. The Countywide Committee People would be very interesting, and who held their voucher when the selection in the case of County/State selections took place. Many people do not take time to do research on the above people, but it would sure give cause for conversation over a luncheon or evening out with the guys/gals.

Anonymous said...

Our Commissioner's Meeting was interesting, glad we are able to view it again, again and again. Now, Committee People that have a position in the Court House - will they be able to continue working at the Court House, be a member of Political Clubs,take time off to work the polls, or indeed be a committee person or be a Union Member that is supporting a certain candidate,work at the Parks - on and on it will go. Our dear Commissioners need to get their heads on straight - they are acting like an eighteen year old that just learned how to vote.
We really do need to see who holds a Committee Position through-out Montgomery County NOW, if our commissioners make a decision to put into law the proposed ethics rulings. There will be quite a few openings and also on the various Election Boards.

Anonymous said...

Lower Providence News Flash:

Word on the street has it that the Chairman of the Republican Party in District four (4) has asked Tom Borai to withdraw his petition.

Reason: He may draw votes from the endorsed candidates.

What kind of sickness is that?

Experience is not a factor?

Quit sitting on your brains, use them ,or at least try.

Knowing Borai, the Chairman is whistling Dixie if he thinks he will drop.

Anonymous said...

So one candidate said he/she is not in favor of ARC - the way the plan is now. Development, with a local flavor needs to be considered. A run-over-you type of plan that has been given the Park and Locals is why so many are a little on the No Thank You side.

Anonymous said...

ARC is a great idea! But, if you are to make this type of "History Museum" and all that is suggested, Prior Planning of all aspects is needed - do it right the first time. The "Planners" now in place should be "Historians". The local area,is a part of the era that will be covered. My ancestors were a part of the settlement in this area and Worcester when Washington "slept" here was going on. - How many more families would like to add their family's history to this historic venture? That being said consider the building - if its content does not have items of interest and factual evidence to back it up - we only have another building.

Anonymous said...

Tom, I have been singing "Dixie" and it now is catching on...but I'm not as good as Al Jolson, but the story behind "Dixie" is interesting. See you at the Polls.